Malcolm, thanks for trying to drag your colleagues into the 21st century.
Your efforts with the current mob were in vain, but your principles are on track.

Time to start a new liberal party - bring back Petro Georgiou and the like.

Best wishes to you for the festive season.

http://topsy.com/tb/malcolmturnbull.com.au/MalcolmsBlogs/tabid/105/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/707/Reflections-on-the-season-and-modern-communications.aspx

When you quoted "Oh, my God, I had no idea you read this stuff." I think you identified what it is that gives some people the sense that it's OK to engage in abuse through this medium. In reality I think they're speaking with their inner angry voice, one that's usually confined to their internal process. Here in this seemingly anonymous space, just them, and the keyboard, they speak with this voice.

I'm challenged on a daily basis by the behaviours of adolescents who experiment with boundaries as part of growing. The cybersphere gives them an illusion of anonymity so they often pull out all stops and can be effusively rude and cruel. We try to teach them good web etiquette not wanting to see this adolescent cyber-bullying consolidate into a bad adult habit.

On the matter of climate change, you took the only ethical and economically rational course. Just one word of caution, don't place too much faith in the notion that developing countries like Indonesia will use Western funds to preserve rainforests. I'm not sure how much exposure you've had to this country. I lived there on and off for 18 years. I travelled alll over it. I can assure you that the rapacity of loggers, palm oil plantation speculators, public servants and business people is most apparent. Corruption is endemic, as I'm sure you know see http://www.riohelmi.com/site/?p=690

I can only assume that the obnoxious mails are being written to a Public Person rather than human being. A public person is (in their eyes) a legitimate target for venting spleen as, after all, it's not like it's a real person, is it?

But it is odd, nevertheless. I know that I certainly wouldn't be able to handle that type of abuse. I don't know that the fact that it's abuse for abuse's sake rather than a specific issue makes it any better either - bit like being a kind of literary punch-bag.

But at least you got a positive outcome from that example.

Great post Malcolm. Having spent most of your life in the pre-internet age, you've become accustomed to people being genuine and having to communicate with an identity attached to them. The internet allows individuals to be completely disinhibited. These keyboard warrior types probably existed before the mid 90's, its just that you never heard from them.

A few thoughts on all this internal party bickering though:

Why offer yourself up for preselection and acquire votes on the back of the Liberal brand if you are going to actively oppose and undermine the leader. This applies to the others who did the same when you were leader. If you don't like Liberal policy, either offer yourself up for leadership or nominate someone else who you support, or failing that, contest the next election as an independent. All internal bickering should be done behind closed doors. You can't have it both ways by securing Liberal voters and then deciding you want to be your own man/woman and cross the floor on issues that your party is running on. The ALP is publicly 100% behind their leader when it comes the the ETS, and so they should be. They rode the ALP ticket to secure a cushy parliamentary seat, even though quite a few of them would be against this policy privately.

Good point. When it comes to abuse, maybe people feel enabled by the fact that politicians are so rude to each other. The behavior in parliament is pretty different to what you'd normally see in a professional environment. It creates a kind of climate where people feel totally free to viciously attack the other side, because they themselves feel viciously attacked.

Thats why the recent events have been so disheartening—it was really good to see the govt & opposition going past partisan squabbling to actually work together on the ETS. It makes sense for that to happen when both sides take an equivalent policy to an election. Was sorry to see it end the way it did.

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Merry Christmas, Mr T! Great post. The new media era gives people the anonymity to say things they would never otherwise say. Me, for example! I'm a Labor supporter! Heavens I should never say nice things to you with my real name! LOL

But you are a man of principle, and you stuck to your guns on something important to me. At considerable cost to yourself.

And for that, I thank you.

Do come back swinging next year, I promise we won't comment on the size of your testicles any more! (Although holy heck sunshine ... didn't you give them a run for their money!)

xxx to you and yours.

*** Oh WHY DID I GET THE CRANKY JOHN HOWARD FACE WITH THAT LAST POST !! ***

Unfortunately, modern communications enable people to say instantly, publicly and anonymously what people previously said in private. Understanding the difference between public and private communication is a much underrated skill. Knowing when to hold your tongue is another fast disappearing skill.

Disagreeing with a person's point of view is entirely different to making insulting remarks about a person because the hold an opinion which does not agree with your own.

In my experience, those vicious and nasty remarks are made by bitter people who are frustrated by their own inability to communicate and have alienated everyone close to them.

Anyway Malcolm, I wish you and your family well in the future.

I don't particularly agree with your stance on some issues Mr Turnbull, but I do respect your determination and willingness to stand by what you believe.

This is an EXCELLENT post - well done.

As for communication nastiness, I think some people may blame the example set by certain politicians, but just take it to the next level because of the perceived anonymity afforded by the Internet etc.

Plus, politics tends to polarise people - ergo, never discuss religion, politics, sex, or whether you like Ford or Holden over the dinner table (perhaps I should change that last one to Porsche or Ferrari?) :)

Anyway, this is well worth a ReTweet - all the best!

The pressure of public life must be tremendous. Though I don't want an ETS, I respect that you stood up for your principles.

Public comments are filled with hate everywhere, just look at youtube. IIf it's people letting loose in an anonymous environment, does this mean that regular people that hold it together carry around hateful thoughts everywhere? I guess it does!

I think people tend to hide behind the email we live in a world where we are losing touch with face to face communication which makes it terribly easy for people to hind behind a computer and type away.

There is no excuse for such abusiveness and rudeness. Perhaps you could suggest they attend a finishing school to learn grace and manners.

Over Christmas I'm sure you will be pondering many things.
Ponder this too. Why can't we have our cake and eat it? Why not have Liberal views and a realistic view on climate change? Why not wish to lead a party without having the internal pressure from the corporate sponsors?

Start a new party. Maybe the Liberal Greens? I'd vote for that!

PS, glad you changed your dodgy Twitter wallpaper :)

Hello Malcolm.

I don't think you fit. You're certainly no Rudd - there's a kernel of truth in how you present yourself - and I think people respect that. And you're no John Howard either - you wear your social conscience on your sleeve proudly. To take the time to ruminate over the excesses of communication (particularly over the internet) further distinguishes you from the blueprint of politician.

Expand your research and randomly read some comments on YouTube - the vileness that sprouts from the anonymous keyboard will raise your eyebrows. The cloak of anonymity is worn like superman's cape in cyberspace - once removed I think it would revel "normal", if somewhat scared, young people that would never utter such things in the light of day.

As an aside, I believe you should be an independent, but I wish we had a political system where an independent could really have a chance of becoming the Prime Minister. (I'm no political historian, but my reading of the origins of democracy is that the people were represented by individuals that believe in a cause or a standpoint. Human nature saw an opportunity to band together to create parties to overwhelm the individual.)

Anyway, I think you would make a very effective independent because of your profile. It's probably your best fit.

Have a recouperative christmas - we all need it.

Malcolm, I can't get over how some think that party solidarity is more important than humanity's future. I'm relieved that 41/83 (and rising) of our slightly less-concerned major party is of the sane persuasion (party solidarity not being your long suit). Keep up the good work. Once sanity is achieved, solidarity will follow. Until sanity is achieved, solidarity doesn't have a prayer.

Malcolm, I agree with your railway bridge analogy. As someone here said, the new media era gives people the anonymity to say things they would never otherwise say. I am more outrageous on the internet than I am in the real world, but I always try to stay positive in my comments. Just more outrageously positive, like Malcolm, you're my hero! (I mean that.)

Have a great summer break! You deserve it.

Malcolm, I think you are a good bloke.
Best wishes of the season to you and your family.

Hi Malcolm,

Climate change is something that needs careful study and analysis whichever side you take. It deserves research and understanding.

I see from this morning's WE Austtralian that Tony Abbott formed his opinion and position after listening to a small group of old farmers late one night. Huh? That is not a very scientific way to reach a conclusion. Tony's an imposter.

Good luck to you Malcolm

And they tried to destroy Turnbull for this ::


Rebellious Joyce slapped back into line
MICHELLE GRATTAN
December 12, 2009
Ads by Google

Shadow treasurer Joe Hockey has slapped down new Opposition finance spokesman Barnaby Joyce over his comments on debt and banking.

Mr Hockey said the senator was wrong to claim Australian states and the US Government might default on debts, and that his comments on banks and Chinese investment were not policy.

Mr Hockey stressed that he, not the outspoken Nationals senator, was in charge of Opposition policy on foreign investment and banking.

As Kevin Rudd pilloried the Opposition over Senator Joyce's provocative comments, Opposition Leader Tony Abbott read his frontbench the riot act about discipline at its first meeting.

The Nationals' Senate leader had spoken out about the dangers of the US Government and Australian states defaulting on debt. He warned that if the US defaulted it would cause an ''economic Armageddon''. He urged a tougher approach to the banks and a harder line against Chinese investment in Australian resources.

Mr Abbott said he had told frontbenchers at yesterday's meeting that ''shadow ministry and shadow cabinet solidarity starts now … Everyone understands that and everyone will play by the team tactic, play by the team rules.''

Asked whether state governments could default, Mr Abbott said it was ''very important that we have sound public finances''.

Mr Hockey said Senator Joyce's comments were not Coalition policy.

''He's not responsible for foreign investment [policy] - I am,'' Mr Hockey said, adding that the Opposition had no plans to change banking regulation. ''We put in place [under the Howard government] the best financial services regulation in the world - it's globally recognised as the best financial services regulation - I helped put it in place.''

Mr Hockey said there was no evidence that any Australian states or the US were in danger of defaulting on loans.

Senior Liberals are anxious to take an early tough line against Senator Joyce, because his loose comments play into the Government's hands and damage the Opposition's economic credentials.

Mr Hockey and Senator Joyce had separate talks after the frontbench meeting. Senator Joyce said after the shadow ministry meeting: ''In a way it's kind of convenient because every time I get a difficult question I can say, well that's a view of shadow cabinet which I can't discuss.''

Mr Rudd said: ''To have the finance spokesman of the alternative government of Australia saying that one of our states could default - this is gross economic irresponsibility, policy on the run, shooting from the lip.

''There is a reputational interest here for Australia, whatever side of politics you're on … to defend the Australian economic interest.''

Source: The Age

Malcolm, the people who make nasty vicious comments under the cloak of anonymity have always been around. They are simply cowards as they would never have the guts to come out and say such things to your face - they were probably schoolyard bullies who have never really grown up and want to blame everyone else for their own inadequacies. I'm sure, as you say, that politicians have to develop a thick skin and let it all wash over them. This subject brings to mind the time when Bob Dylan angered some of his audience by going electric, and they shouted "Judas" at him. Dylan simply stood his ground and quietly replied "I don't believe you." He knew he was right and history proved this to be the case.

History will prove you to be right also, and I hope that you don't go anywhere, and stay in the Liberal Party, because we need people like you and Joe Hockey now more than ever. Have a peaceful, relaxing Christmas with your family and come back re-invigorated for next year, because it's going to be a wild ride.

Did you send Abbott a christmas card yet?

Have a great break and enjoy your family, you deserve it.

Well , Malcolm, I pretty much don't agree with any of your politics, but nevertheless, I don't hate you, and in fact, you do get included in my prayers (seriously) . I do respect you a lot though for allowing dissenters like myself to post their comments on your blog, even if I don't agree with you.

I do wish you the very best at christmas time , and pray it is a productive time of reflection and relaxation for you. By the way, I don't respect any nasty comments made of you or anyone else, from anyone, even if their politics agree with mine.

Kind regards,

Eric

All the best, Malcolm to you and to your family. You have a convert here. I am a Labor voter and am really challenged when the best canidate is not Labor.

I have just moved into Wentworh. But I will accept and understand whatever decision to arrive at over the break.

May peace be with you.

Well, while I don't wish death or pain or whatever on you, just as I won't call you a fascist, I certainly wish you the worst electorally speaking. Nothing but a self serving twit is all you are.

The interesting thing is that it shows you're reading the comments. Good, because I have a few questions.

There are people calling for a new party, and I know you've described this suggestion as "science fiction". But you've also said "Mr Abbott apparently knows what he is against, but not what he is for". As a serving member it would probably be indiscreet for you to say outright that the Liberal Party has lost its way, but that's what many people are saying.

At the same time, throughout your leadership there was a lot of public exasperation at trying to figure out what you stood for. I realise the papers obfuscated much that you said, and I also drew attention in Crikey to the way D. Shenanigan made it his personal mission to gag you. And it was crystal clear, especially towards the end, that you stood for science-driven climate repair. OK, good, we got that one.

But what else do you stand for? What does "Liberal" mean to you? If the party asked you to sit on a committee to rewrite its charter, not on today's issues but on general principles, what would you submit?

It's probably nice in some ways to have gone from leader of a deeply unpopular opposition to an all-things-to-all-people great white hope, and being lauded by much of the Labor and Green sector for your stand on carbon. But there have been punters going so far as to call for you to be president of a new republic. Yet we still don't really know you.

Sooner or later you will need to choose between either fading away, or declaring in clear terms what sort of government you would like to be part of. Such a statement may risk the ire of the Liberal Party and also lose you a few fans. But people need to know. We're in a wilderness here, with a choice next year between a pseudo-intellectual socialist megalomaniac and a buffoon who probably needs Minchin's advice on how to pick his nose.

So are you going to go out on a limb and suggest a broad vision of the next government? Or are you going to sit there sunbaking in your new found popularity for a while until you're forgotten?

Dear Malcolm,

I just read that you had pledged $6 million to Peter Andrew's cause if you were to win the next election. I'm glad I read that because it affirms my view that (aside from some minor gripes) I think you are one of those rare politicians who didn't come through the political system from a younger age who become so good at avoiding the real issues and served only themselves. Like Socrates, who was killed by (a primitive) democracy for speaking out, you have been ousted. The only difference is you are still with us. PLEASE do not stop to do something for the environment. As far as I'm concerned there's a place for a party that is RIGHT, not left or right. Fight for truth, not dollars. I work for Johnson & Johnson which is an ethical company and is in the top 10 world's biggest companies in terms of market cap. Who says the truth cannot win? Who says fighting for what is right cannot bring wealth? I don't. I sincerely believe you don't also.
Best Regards and Merry Christmas to you and your family.
Peter

Just found your blog Malcolm. I know its not expedient to say so, but dude you where someone who was able to bring the left and the right together behind some common sense ideas.

Although I found myself disagreeing with you over much stuff, born of ideological differences, I was astonished and humbled at you throwing yourself on the sword over a decent and smart position. My left wing idea and your free market idea about how to tackle this climate change are a wold apart, but mate, I respect the hell out of your stance on doing the right thing for future generations (the people who have to wear our choices on climate change) , framed by your economic ideas.

Best of luck mr Turnbull. Best lib leader since Frazer. Its a shame that aussies didnt realise your backbone till it was too late. Maybe after the next election. Term two might just be winnable.

Handshake from the other side,
Don

If only you hadn't over-reached earlier in the year with Godwin Grech and used up the majority of your political capital, the sharks in your party wouldn't have smelled blood. Maybe you would have retained enough authority over your party to get the ETS through, especially with better poll numbers to put wind in your sails. As a green(not in the environmental sense) politician you still have a lot to learn, and as Nick Minchin said, he has been a creature of the party for 30 years, Tony Abbott and Eric Abetz also, to say nothing of the old warhorses Bronwyn Bishop and Phillip Ruddock, who continue to unjustifiably hang on to their seats like limpets on a rock. To say nothing of the radical conservatives that have infected your party. You're as religious as I would want any politician to be.
I also believe it really does behove someone in the Don Chipp mould, such as yourself, to once again form a moderate, truly *liberal* party. How about Natasha Stott-Despoja as your Deputy. You also have a right to call the new party, The Australian Republican Party, I think. A 'warm and dry' party as Nick Greiner said.
Not that I would ever vote for such a party because in their race for capital success for the individual and their family, a lot of the weak are left behind to fend for themselves and rely on bitter charity. I would always prefer to vote for a party that cares about all Australians and uses our taxes to do that. Still, there a lot of people who believe that other way is the way the world should function but who aren't quite the cold-hearted conservative types who wish to place strictures on all of society, to conform to their beliefs.
Suffice to say, as many others have, I didn't think you had it in you to be anything other than yet another opportunistic politician, like Barry O'Farrell in NSW, who would do or say anything to get into power; ditto John Howard.
Anway, 'Good Luck to you, Sir'. Have a restful Christmas and New Year and come back refreshed and willing to take the fight up to your party again, or to put the hard yards into creating a 3rd force in politics(I don't count The Nationals as a force, well, not for good anyway). Also, could you please, if only privately, acknowledge that our Prime Minister is a good guy who also has the country's best interests at heart. Send him a Christmas card, I dare you!

The hillbilly says it all for me. You did okay, Malcolm, but you could have done a whole lot better. Now the so-called 'Liberal' party is back in the hands of the lunar right. Liberalism in Australia is a cordoned philosophy as long as it aligns itself with conservatism. Get out or die is the message.

HillbillySkeleton,

You raise a fair point that in a pure liberal regime the poor are left behind more often than non-taxing, zero-welfare libertarian purists would have us believe.

The libertarian principle was best expressed by John Stuart Mill as follows:

"The sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection ... the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilised community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant."

But socialism has added much of value to modern society. Medicare, free education, a welfare safety net so everyone can eat, and so on. It should be possible to have a libertarian government and still ensure everyone has the necessities, if not their own yacht.

It is possible. Feeding and housing the very poor at taxpayer expense is sensible even for the interests of the rich, as it prevents crime. Models like a Negative Income Tax (it's in wikipedia) have been proposed for doing this very cost effectively, with far less beaurocracy and nannying than the current welfare system entails. Do the unemployed really need Centrelink looking over their shoulder every week, making them feel like parolees and losers?

Universal education is great value for money for all society - though there is merit in the argument for privatising all schools and providing education vouchers for the poor. My own public school education, I have to say, was of poor quality, Marxist flavoured, and not good as good value for taxpayer dollars as it might have been.

Suppose John Stuart Mill's no-harm principle could be combined with one more principle, such that the government is limited to the following:

1. The government may do things to prevent people from harming to each other, their property, or their liberties.
2. The government may provide people with what they need in order to help themselves, but not force them to take it if they don't want it.

What would you say to a regime like that?

Dear Malcolm, Lucy, Alex and Daisy,

I would burn each abusive Christmas card and delete all vitriolic e-mail that comes your way as you don’t want to draw negativity towards you at any time let alone during this Holy Season.
May the miracle of Christmas fill your heart with warmth and love. Christmas is the time of giving and sharing. It is the time of loving and forgiving.
Kind Regards
Kathy M

Malcolm,

I endorse the calls here for you to split from the Liberal/National Coalition. As a life long economically dry but socially moderate Liberal voter I was willing to accept John Howard's social conservatiism because he did balance up competing views effectively in the "broad church", while delivering effectively on economic and national security issues. Abbott is not going to do this, not on climate change, nor on the Republic nor on any other matter where he has a strong conservative view. What's more he doesn't even have a commitment to smaller, less intrusive government and said as much in his book "battlelines".

I find his brand of politics as objectionable as I do that of the hardest
left-winger so it makes no difference to me if the ALP remains in power while that is the only alternative. I am not going to vote Liberal while he is leader. I'd like to think that he will get a thrashing at the next election and that the Libs will come back to you with their tails between their legs. The problem is that so many socially conservative has beens like Tuckey and Bronwyn Bishop are entrenched in safe seats (the only ones likely to be retained after the election) and don't look to be leaving unless it is feet first, that I can't see it happening.

Voters like me need currently have no party with a realistic chance of winning seats to vote for. A party that is committed to economic and environmental responsibility,and social freedom, is a gap in the Australian political landscape that desperately needs to be filled and would be attractive not only to disaffected moderate libs but also to swinging voters who currently choose the ALP and even the Greens. It has worked in New Zealand with the Association of Consumers and Taxpayers party and I don't see why it can't work here and you are the man to lead it.

Best wishes to you and your family during the festive season and a happy new year.

Boz.

Dear Malcolm,

You are a rare being indeed - a politician with noble principles. I know I am not alone in hoping you will not abandon public life. You WILL be PM if you wait.

All the best.

I am also amazed that party solidarity has been more importan than principal.

I hope that over the Christmas break, your fellow liberal members consider their stance and cross the floor when the ETS is reintroduced in parliament. I am not sure that I fully understand the scheme, and I am sure it is no tough enough, but something is better than nothing and it is time for us to start the process.

Liked your post! Merry Christmas, Happy New Year.

Merry Christmas, Malcolm.
I suspect Tony Abbott and Barnaby Joyce won't survive parliamentary scrutiny (especially the Question Time dissection of their contradictary and populist positions) when it resumes in February. QT followed by the evening TV news and the following morning's newspapers and then talk-back radio should do them over nicely.
As the next election (probably a double dissolution) will likely be in August, your party may beg to have you lead them again.
Wait for the second coming (in May) of the ETS that Minchin welched on and then a likely easy post-budget run for Rudd and Swan.
By June, the mutineers will be making Minchin walk the plank and they will try to draft you into the leadership again.

I am wondering weather the petty story about our p.m. who is about to
negotiate one of the biggest problems this country has had to face since ww 11 re the come car and the hospitals
is just so we will for get TONY ABBOTT and his no policies on anything
especially health and the future of this country re climate change.

o and happy Christmas Mr. Turnbull to you and all your family.
i am sure you even think this is petty.
surely we have better things to read no wonder the sales of papers are slipping. Things like cliamte change should be on the FRONT PagE.

O i forgot to say Malcome and lucy,
the News that Mary may soon be our first saint what a wonderful at chritmas to tell you the trugh i have not felt chrismassy at all but now i think thats all about to change for me.... have a great time at christmas.

I think this is a timely reminder that miracles do happen
perhaps Copenhagen will work out;
We should all sides of politics pray to Mary to intercede for us all.
and may i say with out upsetting any one God Bless our P.M.
because he is a great man with a lot of skill sorry but thats what i think.

People who send nasty or abusive comments to other people anonymously, via email or text messages are simply pathetic.
If you don't have anything nice to say...don't say it at all.
Cyber space bullying & harrassment is getting completely out of control & it invades people's lives.
You have to feel sorry for people who feel the need to use emails to abuse a person rather than stand up and have the guts to say it to their face.

Cheers.

As a 31 year old South Australian, it has been a frustrating period over the last few months watch the Liberals turn on themselves, and in turn (temporarily) lose one of the most inspiring, eloquent and courageous leaders I have seen in politics.

Malcolm you are a true statesman, and I hope that I may be able to watch you lead our nation in the future. ..(Let's face it - these socialist economic policies are going to back fire massively on Rudd, and I expect it may be much sooner than we think).

Enjoy the festive season.

Malcolm, I've developed a liking for you ever since your solo Q&A appearance. The apparent schism in the Liberal party over the ETS actually gives me some hope that democracy is not yet dead. After all, the first duty of any elected member is to represent their electorate. Anyone who puts their loyalty (perhaps I should say fealty) to their party ahead of that is breaching their obligation to their electorate.

Malcolm,

As a long time Labor (or even Green) voter, I must say that your posts invoke strange and disturbing feelings of confusion.

They are invariably witty, erudite and intelligent - could this be a Liberal worthy of respect? Since your stance on the ETS, the answer is clearly yes.

If I lived in Wentworth, I can easily imagine voting for you.

As it is, I don't and I couldn't vote for a party that proposes Barnaby Joyce as a serious contender for a key economic portfolio.

Have an equally joyous and safe Christmas and may you regain the leadership soon!

Walt Whitman said "I am large. I can embrace paradox".

One persons mental poise is anothers mental poison.

One persons dodgy twitter wall paper is anothers aesthetic delight.
You can bet your trim-boodie none of this will matter in the fullness of time.

Politics is just the grown up's excuse to continue playing the cops and robbers games that were such a hit in the schoolyard.

Think about it...

Mal, come on the show.

Malcolm

To you and yours I wish a wonderful Christmas , the very best for the festive season and happy new year .

Agree your previous blog has revield interesting views and angles trust it helps , which ever way you decide there will be respect for your effort and actions plus support for the next chapter .
A good book usually has many chapters to make a great story !!!!!

Cheers
David......AKA......Copenhagen

Cheers
David AKA Copenhagen

Merry Christmas Malcolm to you and your family.

Next year will hopefully be a defining year for all of us. Hopefully the world will resolve to fix climate change. People around the world will be galvanised by their leaders to change our lives, just a little, for the well-being of our children (and ourselves). Kids leaving high school will contemplate studying and working options with a new green economy in mind. People in poorer nations will work with us on sustainable development projects. The biggest companies in Australia and around the world will begin to change gear a little to become leaders in a cooperative response to the biggest challenge the world faces.

And in Australia we will all embrace this exciting, daring and difficult change. For those who are scared about their futures I hope all of us will provide every opportunity to build new opportunities, even if this costs us a few dollars each.

Thank you Malcolm for your courage and vision. I have never felt so inspired by an Australian political leader and I am happy to help however I can.

Malcom

Some very nasty personal comments were directed at you from some contributors to your bog. Politics can bring out the best and worst in some!!
I wish to convey to you our sincere thanks for upholding the principals normally associated with the liberal party. In my view, Honour and Integrity are paramount, these are qualities you have steadfastly displayed in recent times. Many of us ( myself included ) didn't always agree with your tactics or views, however, everyone should admire you for upholding the principals expected by party supporters, and the Ausralian people. It deeply saddens me to see that these values have recently been disgarded.
Have a good break, and may you and your family have a safe and very Merry Xmas.

It is only a matter of time before the current leadership group burns and crashes. Please have patience, for all our sake.
happy holidays

I was one of those who gave you a decent serve. The facts and sentiments I put to you I stand by. No - I possibly would not have said it to your face in the terms I used. Perhaps this is a good thing though - That people can get out their true position on an issue. I agree, the venomous stuff should be left aside but I am sure you are smart enough to let that gutter stuff float by you. - but still accept the fact that someone does not like what you've done.
PS - I still think you were a bit precious in your comments about Abbott and should not have brought this bickering into the open. For god's sake use some smarts and do that internal stuff behind closed doors. Ot doesn't do you or the party any good to be giving the Government that sort of ammunition.

I think you're being a bit rich here. "Poor Malcolm' ... not!! From all the feedback I've heard you're the first person to blow up without any thought to anyone's feelings etc. You're a public figure who has done something that thank goodness I've not seen in recent Australian politics. That is why people are p*%*%d off.
This is just another attempt to take the 'higher ground' when realistically you just stuffed up politically. This way you could try and push your position through when you didn't have the support and then say well 'at least I tried to do the right thing for the planet', make the party implode and then walk away and not feel like a loser.
There is nothing wrong with the current position the party is taking and your continued sniping will ensure the Liberal Party is stuffed at the next election and beyond as they won't be able to sell it.
Now please either leave the party or tow the party line on the backbench.
PS. You shouldn't take much comfort from the comments here, as most admit they never have and never would have voted Liberal anyway.

For those who consider themselves open-minded:

http://www.theresilientearth.com/?q=content/himalayan-glaciers-not-melting

Malcolm, please do take comfort from the comments here. I vote Liberal and I recognise a couple of other people posting here who do also.

i did not think it would be long before abbott bought politics in to the life or
Mary Mckillop. Any one can go to the chapel not just catholics all comers are welcome.

Happy chirstms Mr. Turbull. please consider that new party
next year.

Dear Malcolm,

Where do I sign up for the Australian Progressive Republican Party?

I like about half of all the other members in the Liberal Party are looking for a home.

Cheers and Happy Christmas,

Tim

Dear bloggers,

If anyone else has a better name for the new Malcolm Party. Perhaps you could feel free to share it with everyone.

Tim,

How about just the "Australian Progress Party"? Put Republican in the name in Australia and people will think it is a single issue show.

Yes - the new party. What a brilliant idea. If you can't hack it in the Liberal party because you made several disasterous political moves and have very little appeal to the electorate, let's take the bat and ball and play with all the other kids who can't fit in. How about "The Bat and Ball Party". And I am a dyed in the wool Liberal supporter. Bit of a worry eh??. This party is bigger than the ETS or any one issue. It's about Liberal principles and ideals and not shafting your fellow party members in public because you lost a ballot. We want to see the party succeed and get rid of this socialist rabble. We are desperate for someone to emerge to bring Rudd to account. We were hoping you could do that. It hasn't eventuated. Malcolm you are obviously a highly intelligent and personable guy. How about using your talents to support the Liberal leadership and to unite the party behind whoever is the elected leader.

Did u see that youtube vid thats gone viral of that Irish politician Deputy Gogarty? Thought of you for some reason.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8TRXJ0SHm4
Go on u know u want to. lol

Merry Xmas
Darren

Merry Christmas Mr. Turnbull

Russell
What a lot of rubbish. Long time (dyed in the wool) party supporters are worried. Recall recent events.
Malcom Turnball and his team were the ones 'shafted' by the powerbrokers. It is these individuals who lack Pincipals and Integrity. Whilethis mob control the party we might as well rename our party the 'Bat & Ball' party. Result of any contest led by the powerbrokers will read:
TOP ORDER DISMISSED WITHOUT SCORING.. MIDDLE AND LOWER ORDER OUT FOR A DUCK AS THEY DECIDED TO FOLLOW THE TOP ORDER.....

A thought provoking piece about the internet influence on communication and social effects - a topic of fascination for me.
I wonder if it is more than the medium.
Mainstream media as increasingly percieved as biased, not helped by their neverending quest to stuff more advertising and product placement into their content. When they report a story, it may be biased before they got hold of it, such as by a corporate PR person or a policitical spin doctor.
Perhaps lack of trust mixed with frustration at the difficulty of finding out the truth of a matter provides the motivation to vent, and the internet and e-mail provide the most convenient mechanism.

Merry Christmas to you and yours, Malcolm.

I am another who would like to see a new centrist party in Australia. Economically conservative, socially liberal. There are plenty of people whose politics currently sits between Labor and Liberal; the old ground where the Liberal Party used to be.

Unless something astonishing happens between now and July next year, the Liberal Party are going to lose even more seats - and it will be the moderate voices who will be lost, not the scary flat-earthers.

And that would be disastrous for both the Party and democracy as we know it.

Geez Malcolm, the prospects of an ETS are really looking sick as each day of the overseas talkfest passes. They can hardly agree on the time of day but, that may change when the Heads start arriving later this week, or will it?
It shouldn't be surprising that all us conservatives run for cover when we're having something jammed down our neck when we just don't understand, in this case the ETS. I imagine all Liberal MP's received similiar emails from their constituents and hence, said NO to you. Even if it was one vote.
Let see if the Govt want to go on with it at home after Copenhagen. Do you still think you were backing the right horse?

Those looking for a new party, see the facebook group below:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&ref=nf&gid=49880152271#/group.php?gid=203867237528&ref=ts
('Malcolm Turnbull should start his own party'.

Malcolm,

As you would know, the prospect of internet censorship is dangerously close to becoming a reality.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/12/15/2772467.htm

I really think you should make this your issue. It would differentiate you clearly from your opponents and win you a lot of support from younger voters.

It was sad to see Ian Plimer so badly demolished on Lateline - it seems he is not very familiar with his own book.

Plimer used to be very good - his previous book "Telling Lies for God" humiliated the dishonest Christians in Australia and their ridiculous lies about Noahs Ark and similar idiocy.

Regarding Hillbilly Skeleton's faith in our current PM : generous and good natured but unfortunately misplaced. The man is a demagogue of the first order; a chameloen. In other words : a fake.

Everyone should visit the blog of Barnaby Joyce - most amazing posts - extreme profanities, death threats , accusations of being a traitor & communist to anyone making any comment in favour of the science of climate change............Malcolm Turnbull is the subject of the most outrageous (& moronic ) claims

It reflects badly on the rent-a-crowd who support Dads Armykj

Have to say, nothing in your time as leader became you like the leaving of it.
Merry Xmas to you and your family.

I looked after the suggestion of the poster above.
and the sort of people this attracts about any one who beleives in the science of climate change is scary. And also perhaps who know the seicne of anything.
Why he would leave these posts up is beyond.
me.
O my goodness the right are scary.

Malcolm. A merry christmas to you and your family.
I have voted for the liberal party for over 30 years and while i havn't always agreed with everything you say, as with John Howard, i admire the way you stand up for what you believe. I come from a traditional working class background and live among working class people, you might be surprised at the number of working class people who would say what an ar$%$#le Mr Howard was in front of their mates but who would vote for him at every election, how do you think he got in time and time again?, because people respect a strong leader even if they don't always agree with what they stand for. Mr Howards one big mistake which alienated him from the working class, and lost their votes, was the introduction of the IR laws which were not needed at a time when the economy was booming. Those IR laws could have been brought in when the GFC started to bite with significantly less voter backlash and we might have been spared having the wastrel Kevin Rudd once again plunging our country into hundreds of billions of dollars of debt.
Middle Australia is crying out for someone moderate to lead them and it is middle australia and their votes which decide the outcome of every election as they have done in every election since federation. We don't trust Rudd and we don't trust the likes of the mad abbott and his rude and obnoxious followers. I spent a great deal of time on your facebook site and every time we spoke up for you we were called idiots, morons, stupid and all other sorts of other names just as you have experienced on here, and yet these same people had the nerve to call you arrogant and undemocratic, they are a complete joke.
For the first time in 3 decades i am considering NOT voting liberal, please consider forming your own party and give us someone who we feel comfortable voting for otherwise i can see us spending many years in the political wasteland.
The one problem you seem to have is your public image. People only seem to see the rich silvertail. They don't see the man who was brought up by a single father and who lived in rental accomodation for many years. They do not see the man who spent years in university educating himself to get where he is, a journey my own daughter is just beginning. They do not see the scholarships you have funded that have enabled other young people to reach their full potential. You must show the people these things if you are to succeed. Please use the next few months to think about your future and if you do start your own party, i will be the first to join up.
All the best.

Have a good one and come back fighting - but without the crass bombast of your temporary nemesis.

Well there you go :

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/daring-speech-invokes-churchill/story-e6frg6zo-1225810755498


- now the Australian is comparing Abbott with Churchill.

Strangely, I am totally lost for words !!!!! No, its not April 1

Hi Malcom,

A 100 reasons why I think you'd have to either be a fool, ill-informed, or biased to believe in man-made global warming:

http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/146138

Have a GOOD read of those 100 reasons and you will find that a great many of them are not different reasons at all, they are the same thing put in different words, i think you might be the fool or biased eric b.

The ets was probably not the way to go, but putting our heads in the sand and doing nothing is even worse and infinitely more expensive in the long run. Even my own coastal town has had to spend big bucks building a levee bank around the town because of sea water inundation in recent years.

i totally agree with one of the writers here. Mr. Rudd is a wonderful man very intelligent with the country at heart and doing his best.
Malcolm as i have said before i am a labor voter sorry but i do respect your stand.
Why am I well when i was young a certain man was sending our young men off to Vietnam and i voted labor for the first time i married one of those boys and i think Mr. Whitlam saved his life perhaps.
And also i could not tolerate children behind barb-wire the 11 years of Howard made me quite ill i think.

@Rex - Malcolm was deposed by a ballot in the party room. Make up your mind whose side you're on. The sides are Liberal and Labour.

Dear Malcom

Best wishes for a happy Christmas and safe New Year to you and your family.
Please maintain your courage because Australia needs a moderate and sensible Liberal Party. I have great pity for Greg Hunt trying to formulate a policy on reducing carbon emissions that is at total odds with his own beliefs and the research that he conducted, and the conclusions reached, some few years ago to complete his honours law degree.

A Point of order re "" ERIC B""

If you check back on his posts you will see he says one thing today on a topic and another totally different comment on the next post and again on a later post .

DO NOT BE FOOLED ::: He is a Client Denier / Sceptic the Voice of the new lIBERAL team supporter of aBBott and Joyce .

No Policy , No honor , Part of the FAR rIGHT new lost "" i IBERAL Team ""

The comments that people make can be rather interesting. I find it more interesting that these people tend not to have any better ideas (or sometimes even ideas) when they let loose. That doesn't reflect well on their intelligence.

You have certainly impressed me Malcolm. Your strength of character was on display for all to see when you stuck by what you truly believed in. I would (seriously) love the opportunity to work for you. At present I work in a state labor government department and the lack of leadership is horrendous. All I want is to expand my knowledge in a well led, positive, and innovative environment.

Happy new year :)

Copenhagen - so far I've resisted denigrating your character, and I will continue to do so, simply because I do have more honour and principle than you. I have only attempted to debate facts, not character or to cast aspersions upon you or others, I would ask that you do the same.

Of course I support Abbott and Barnaby , I've made that transparently clear, or so I'd thought. But the fact is, I think for myself, and that is why I support them. That doesn't mean I agree with them on everything. People have rightly pointed out some of the stupid things that Barnaby has spoken on recently, and even if the liberal party pushes ahead with an ETS, and declares that man-made climate change and man-made global warming is true, I still don't believe that. As I have said on other posts I don't agree with Abbott on an ETS, and even if china and the US agree on ETS terms of conditions that doesn't mena man-made global warming is happening.

I am realistic enough to realise though that this is the game politicians play, and in the face of a confused and ill-informed public who aren't closer to the alernative science put forward there is only so much you can do to bring the voting population forward with you which will require a compromise of soughts.

Hi Malcolm,

And just for good measure, another reason not to believe the lies coming out of the CRU:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100020126/climategate-goes-serial-now-the-russians-confirm-that-uk-climate-scientists-manipulated-data-to-exaggerate-global-warming/

Eric the B - The "Russians" being in fact the Institute of Economic Analysis in Russia - a strange unaccountable little organisation that publishes papers only in Russian


But in the hands of the well funded denying industry, they are a leading scientific organisation, representative of all of Russian scientists.


Thanks for playing

Eric B

Here Is the difference

Quote from above
"" even IF the liberal party pushes ahead with an ETS, and declares that man-made climate change and man-made global warming is true, I still don't believe that. As I have said on other posts I don't agree with Abbott on an ETS, and even if china and the US agree on ETS terms of conditions that doesn't mena man-made global warming is happening.""

Thank you for being open and honest

Your version and interpretation of science is at odds with the majority of the community . The sad fact is by their words and actions abbott and joyce also are at odds with the majority and have divided the party that I believe has served Australia so well . This is the only party the Client Sceptics and Deniers
can cling to and in doing so the far rIGHT are again dividing what remains of the party .

So you see Eric you have no where else to go , Your welcome to stay but why continue to wreck and divide this party ????

FACTS from the IPCC on Climate Change

"" Warming of the climate system is unequivocal, as is
now evident from observations of increases in global
average air and ocean temperatures, widespread melting
of snow and ice and rising global average sea level ""

So if the problem of GLOBAL WARMING is left in the hands of aBBOTT nothing will happen because he and your rIGHT side of does not believe it exists .

I and the MAJORITY of the community can NOT that happen .

I will vote Labor next time rather than vote for abbott and joyce with NO Policy and THEIR LACK of belief that Man Made GLOBAL WARMING IS FACT

@Russell
Malcolm Turnball was 'RAILROADED' and knifed in the back by the powerbrokers and their sheep. The 'Party Room' has lost all credibility... Remember...This is the SAME PARTY ROOM that voted to seek amendments 'in good faith negotiations' with the Government - voted to accept the amendments ,and then., after the powerbrokers engineered control, renegued on the Party Rooms decision. Malcolm Turnbull and many others have displayed that they have Integrity and honour in all these events. They are Men of Substance. The powerbrokers and their sheep are the ones who undermined the leader and the Liberal Party.
Thanks to them we now have a PARTY ROOM that DOES NOT HONOUR IT'S AGREEMENTS, IS MAKING POLICY ON THE RUN, AND IS ALIGNED WITH INDIVIDUALS WHO INSULT OUR ALLIES AND WORLD LEADERS ETC. You suggest that we should be in the flock and support these unethical, and spineless individuals...
In my view we desparately need to salvage supporters, and the voters trust. This can only be recovered by a leadership team that has Integrity and high ethical standards.
There will probably be another 'Spill' , and whether it involves Malcom or not, I don't Know, but foremost will be that the person chosen must have Integrity and Honour and uphold these longstanding party values. I will support any leader who pocesses these qualities... Not this unethical mob.

I am sorry you have been dealt with so harshly by faceless bloggers. I too wrote to you at your office in Canberra during the explosive week before the final vote. I was not rude to you in fact I begged you to defer a decision till AFTER COPENHAGEN I did not think that was an unreasonable line of action to take, I am not a sceptic just wary of Australia being overcommited.

Malcolm you lost me when you criticised fellow party members on TV even before the vote was taken. I was glad to see you go, I personally find that unforgivable, what you say behind doors and what you say on TV are two different things. When you were initially voted in I thought you were the best man for the job.

Like other people have said you have your convictions but a party is a party and not just one person. You are a very decent family man and I hope you have a relaxing and great christmas.

Copenhagen:

First let me say that I don't present my interpretation or version of science on global warming - rather I draw upon others for that(and for the most part, I hope and expect they are creditable scientists applying rigorous scientific methods ) . Depending on what side of the divide you place yourself depends on whether you align yourself with the conclusions of the IPPC, or that of another source. As I have stated in other posts I do have strong reason to doubt the conclusions of the IPPC, the CRU email leak merely being one of them. I look forward to the day when there can be an open forum, with an objective media presenting both sides of the argument - I am not afraid to see this debated openly, and feel it should be done for the benefit of all people, especially since the ETS has all the appearance of being an onerous tax that remains inperpetuity.

Depending on whether you're more left of center or right of center in the liberal party determines how you perceive this conflict and who the antagonists are. From my perspective I believe Mr Turnbull was actually taking the party in a direction that would have sent it into exile, therefore, I believe the left-wing bias in the party was actually damaging to it. We have had another poster on here (Eric A) - a union man - who has a good understanding of the union voting mindset - the 'Howard Battlers' as many of them are referred to, prefer a conservative party. The danger of the direction Mr Turnbull was taking was that you would never get these people voting for you, as the party would be too similiar to labor on the major issues. If you really want to win an election, you can't afford to ignoer those potential voters - as Howard found out with the 'Work Choices'.

It is quite instructive to visit Barnaby Joyce’s website & read the comments his supporters post on his blog (http://www.barnabyjoyce.com.au/Blog/tabid/59/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/1025/Bob-Dylan-aliens-and-me.aspx#Comments) - its like falling into a black hole where paranoia and scientific illiteracy have reached such density that reason & coherency cannot radiate out; you have just crossed the goofiness event horizon.

The posts are unmoderated and intolerant of all but the extreme rabid right : abundant profanities & death threats (“D*CKHEAD AND AND A F*CKING COMMUNIST! IF I KNEW YOUR ADDRESS YOU WOULD BE DEAD!”; “EAT SH*T AND DIE!”) , with accusations of treason (“BOTH OF YOU ARE TRAITORS AND COMMUNISTS!”) to anyone making any comment relating to actual climate change science ............Malcolm Turnbull in particular is the subject of the most outrageous, libelous & moronic claims.

CapsLock buttons apparently must be engaged prior to posting.

Many of the posts just regurgitate the nonsense of the pseudoscientific standard bearers of the right : Alan Jones, Andrew Bolt & Lord Monckton are passed off as learned climatologists whilst scientists such as James E. Hansen are dismissed as amoral communist stooges; incessant rants about global communist/atheist /Zionist/banker conspiracies to bring about a UN new world order (I seemed to have left out reptilian ….I am sure it was mentioned somewhere). There are many references to that other global communist/atheist/NWO etc conspiracy, apparently next on the right’s hit list : evolutionary biology


Is this the demographic that the Liberals want to cultivate to return to the treasury benches – the violent semi-literate rednecks?

# james - I see, so , do you place all people in the category of 'the violent semi-literate rednecks?' because they follow the jones, bolt's and monckton's of this worl. Careful, you may just be isolating yourself as an uncouth, intolerant left-wing 'moron'.

Eric B Thursday, December 17, 2009 2:50 PM


It sounds you may have a problem with literacy yourself (that would explain your silly or intentionally misleading comments on "The Russians") - or perhaps you were too lazy to actually read what I wrote?

Or perhaps you think death threats, wild accusations of treason and communism or , in later comments, violent threats of sodomy etc are part of reasoned political debate ?

Time to grow up

T. Abbott announced today that he is worried about the outcome of the PM's negotiations in Copenhagen . He was invited

One can only wonder the positive effects on the Copenhagen meeting and negotiations if Australia were to have presented a cohesive Govt and Opposition representation . With K Rudd and M. Turnbull committed to gaining a positive agreement.

Instead a minority from the fAR rIGHT hijacked the liberal party and now continue to snipe from a safe distance without offering any positive contributions .

How can they . They do not believe Climate Change exists they are skeptics or deniers
aBBOTT has openly stated about climate change quote ( "its crap" )

History will not view the new liberal team well for their grubby grab for power OR
Their and their supporters reckless denial of the existence of Man Made Climate Change .

#james - you're just too much into your own self importance, calm down a little. Those of us who are more on the right-wing side of politics aren't necessarily nasty people , or bite, I'm much moer for a reasoned argument.

Well copenhagen, we'll just have to wait for history to unfold to see exactly how people view Abbott and the liberal party, in future.

Eric the B

From your last posting to ""James"" and you have the hide to cliam the above
""" you may just be isolating yourself as an uncouth, intolerant left-wing 'moron' """

Your just like your fAR rIGHT small "" l"" liberal mates that flip flop an every issue a discrace to the true LIBERAL name and will be the end of this party . Be off with you just GO fAR rIGHT away and spread your poisonos dribble else where . Sorry I forgot you have NO where else to go do you . Shame aBBOuTT that

Copenhagen, you are sounding rather intolerant, but this what I expect from those more left-wing like yourself.

Eric Thursday, December 17, 2009 5:06 PM
"#james - Those of us who are more on the right-wing side of politics aren't necessarily nasty people ""


........of course not..........threats of violent death or sodomy, accusation of treason etc to people actually talking about science are just normal polite debate techniques....... who could possibly take offence at that. I am sure your mother wouldnt

Perhaps I just move in different circles to you, thankfully

It seems you still didnt bother reading what I wrote "do you place all people in the category of 'the violent semi-literate rednecks?' " - of course not , why ask such a stupid question?

The Liberal Party and the Country have been quite tolerant of the mis-truths that the likes of you and your Climate Deniers post .
However your game is now out in the open for all to see thanks to the majority on Malcolms blog .

You forget who's blog this is and the side of politics it represents. If you wish to make a statement you had better make sure it is truthfull and honest . From you side of politics we have seen Lies and Manipulated or snipits of info constantly presented and posted as being facts.
I would not go onto Joyces site and yell obscenities or post outrIGHT lies . You claim to wish to have civil inteligent discussion , well do so but you act like a yahoo and then complain .

You also forget . We have the ground in the center and on the left . You however in the minority are all out in the cold (with your cooling earth theory ) with you fAR rIGHT mates all on your own .
Yes aBBOuTT time for an election

Very good new book :


Climate Cover-Up by James Hoggan with Richard Littlemore

Tony Abbott admitted on Lateline that although he quotes from Ian Plimers book Heaven & Earth, the Hadley Report, IPCC report etc , he has never actuaslly bothered to read any of them , preferring to just read whats in the press. Perhaps he will read this book?

(I am sure he didnt read Plimers previous book - Telling Lies for God : exposing the lies , fabrications & scandals of the fundamentalist religious right)


"Starting in the early 1990s, three large American industry groups set to work on strategies to cast doubt on the science of climate change. Even though the oil industry’s own scientists had declared, as early as 1995, that human-induced climate change was undeniable, the American Petroleum Institute, the Western Fuels Association (a coal-fired electrical industry consortium) and a Philip Morris-sponsored anti-science group called TASSC all drafted and promoted campaigns of climate change disinformation.
The success of those plans is self-evident. A Yale/George Mason University poll taken late in 2008 showed that — 20 years after President George H.W. Bush promised to beat the greenhouse effect with the “White House effect” — a clear majority of Americans still say they either doubt the science of climate change or they just don’t know. Climate Cover-Up explains why they don’t know. Tracking the global warming denial movement from its inception, public relations advisor James Hoggan (working with journalist Richard Littlemore), reveals the details of those early plans and then tracks their execution, naming names and exposing tactics in what has become a full-blown attack on the integrity of the public conversation.
Leveraging four years of original research conducted through Hoggan’s website, DeSmogBlog.com, Hoggan and Littlemore documented the participation of lapsed scientists and ExxonMobil-funded think tanks. Then they analyzed and explained how mainstream media stood by — or in some cases colluded — while deniers turned a clear issue of science (and an issue for public safety) into a partisan argument that no one could win.
This book will open your eyes, it will raise your ire and, most especially, it will inspire you to take back the truth — to end the Climate Cover-up"

This is one voter that hopes you hang in there; someone needs to drag the Liberal party into the 21st century.

Malcolm, you certainly are an intriguing character....you remind me that I don't have to conform and play the games. Success will always come to those who have strength of character and enough conviction to stand tall even in the most precarious of moments....Have a great Christmas....I look forward to the next big adventure..

#Rex You keep talking about the powerbrokers and their sheep as though they are some force external to the party room. These people are all liberals who took a fair and square vote in the party room and Malcolm lost. Are you suggesting that the cut and thrust of the party room was somehow rigged?
Malcolm lost because of a change in the position of the party on climate change. It was a change that I would suggest was well warranted and gave the country breathing space on the climate change debate which was needed as Malcolm was conned into following the Labour party's agenda on this issue . Otherwise we would now have an ETS which most polls of the public were running 80-90% against. When there is a change of position in the party room the party is under no obligation to honour any previous intentions by the previous leader because they have changed position. I would suggest that most of the population apart from the Labour party are thankful they had the guts to change position on a very contentious and fluid issue and only in the nick of time - but at least they did it.. You also refer to integrity and high ethical standards completely ignoring Malcolm's treacherous public admonishing of his new leader. You now have Rudd in Copenhagen changing his rhetoric on climate change vowing to work in with the rest of the world on remedies when previously he was prepared to go it alone irrespective of what the world did. He was prepared to institute the "Malcolm backed Australian ETS Mark 1" irrespective of what the world did - so he has changed position as well - It happens - keep your options open and stay flexible. You sound as though you still have a full head of steam which I would suggest is fogging a balanced view of the facts.

Copenhagen
.... From you side of politics we have seen Lies and Manipulated or snipits of info constantly presented and posted as being facts.
I would not go onto Joyces site and yell obscenities or post outrIGHT lies . You claim to wish to have civil inteligent discussion , well do so but you act like a yahoo and then complain .

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Copenhagen, can't you see that you are at least somewhat guilty of what you are accusing others of here ? You are sounding somewhat aggravated and desparate - wouldn't that qaulify as behaviour befitting a 'yahoo'. Who is complaining, it seems to becoming largely from your corner ? Lies - it seems there is a dispute over the facts or the presentation of information, I'm not aware of anybody dealing in outright lies. I don't even accuse you of that, I just think that you and others who believe in global warming are decieved.

Russell
I find your comments confusing. In one breath you say 'The Party Room has 'spoken' and Malcolm Turnball lost the ballott. Now you say the Party Rooms votes can be disgarded if a new leader is appointed. Thats FLIP FLOP, and not honouring the Party Rooms agreements.
It also means that if the Party Room votes in a way that does not suit a few powerbrokers like Minchin, Abetz, Andrews, Abbott, Robb and Co., they scuttle around like coackroaches in the shadows gathering their flock of sheep together to knife their leader in the back. Furthermore, if their first spill does not go in their favour then they call another one. and so on until they get their way. Is this any way to run a party? My concern is not about whether the ETS issue is right or wrong, (but remember, the Party Room voted to seek amendments , and voted to accept the amendments they negotiated) IT IS ABOUT THE HONOUR AND INTEGRITY OF THE PARTY. For instance., If what you say is correct can you please inform us what our policy will be when Abbott and the powerbrokers are defeated in the next inevitable spill, and yet another leader is elected (or appointed)?
You also state that the Liberal Party is under 'NO OBLIGATION TO HONOUR IT'S *UNDERTAKINGS' (*not intentions as you suggest ) Well , if this is so please tell us how on earth can we expect support from the Australian voters??.
I think your comments merely confirm the Party has a major problem, and, I would like to advise that my glasses are clearer now than they have been previously.

Charming people warming believers keep company with. Lord Monckton knocked out by a danish policeman at the copenhagen conference:


Link:

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/17/lord-monckton-barred-from-copenhagen-conference-pushed-to-the-ground-by-security/

Excerpt

In the end, they decided to turn us away, which they did with an ill grace and in a bad-tempered manner. As soon as the decision was final, the Danish police moved in. One of them began the now familiar technique of manhandling me, in the same fashion as one of his colleagues had done the previous day.

Once again, conscious that a police helicopter with a high-resolution camera was hovering overhead, I thrust my hands into my pockets in accordance with the St. John Ambulance crowd-control training, looked my assailant in the eye and told him, quietly but firmly, to take his hands off me.

He complied, but then decided to have another go. I told him a second time, and he let go a second time. I turned to go and, after I had turned my back, he gave me a mighty shove that flung me to the ground and knocked me out.

Seriously ... Eric B you give the right a bad name. Particularly as you seem to think everyone's comments, even if made generally, are directed at you. Get over yourself and get a life.

While I had great hopes for Malcolm - he stuffed it up and lost my respect when he began making comments to the detriment of the party (and he is in a party!!) and their future prospects including the election of a new leader. He must of thought he'd played the best strategy when he stood, cornered Hockey and was sure he'd thrash Abbott in the second round.

So thank goodness, his time is over so it should also be time to leave this blog and lend your efforts to the new leaders of the party. Writing here is pointless unless you get off on picking fights with left/Labor/Green voters who will never vote Liberal anyway.

So Abbott is now calling for compulsory bible study? Why should my children, of Jewish faith, be forced to study his religion instead of language, science , mathematics etc?

And what will Abbotts thought police do to enforce this - bring back the rack?

The well funded denier industry is at it again




"Scientists 'crying wolf' over coral

* Jamie Walker * From: The Australian * December 19, 2009 12:00AM



"A SENIOR marine researcher has accused Australian scientists of "crying wolf" over the threat of climate change to the Great Barrier Reef, exposing deep division about its vulnerability.

Peter Ridd's rejection of the consensus position that the reef is doomed unless greenhouse emissions are checked comes as new research on the Keppel group, hugging Queensland's central coast, reveals its resilience after coral bleaching"


So who is Peter Ridd? A director of the Australian Environment Foundation (great name - designed to sound like the Australian Conservation Foundation), funded by the Institute of Public Affairs (hence, funded in part by the oil companies). AEF supports development of nuclear industry, Gunns & other pulp mills, extensive cotton farming (the greatest of our environmental vandals) .

No doubt these paid deniers will lose their funding if they dont regurgitate the party line & keep chanting "the earth is cooling"

The Liberals are complete neanderthals! Malcolm, for all your faults, could I give you some advice? Ditch those dinosaurs and either stand as an Independent or start a new, truly liberal, party. Like the literal dinosaurs they're headed for extinction and you'd be crazy to go along with them.

@Rex - It needs to be acknowledged that the upheaval in the Liberal leadership was about one thing - ETS. This was and remains a flexible and devisive issue. No matter how 'put out' you are that your side didn't prevail at least the Liberal party acted - and only in the nick of time but at least it acted. And of course I don't promote the principal of not sticking by your undertakings, but this was an unusual predicament which required some timely and decisive action and a last minute change in direction and to their credit they had the guts to act quickly. Are you suggesting that the Liberals should have purely as a matter of principal been rigid in their undertaking to the Labour party and instituted the ETS? We'd look right idiots now wouldn't we? Copenhagen has been an gone and no global ETS. You also seem to ignore that after the change in leadership the party took a vote on downing the ETS and a considerable majority ruled. I can't tell you what Abbott's policy will be as they haven't finalised it yet. But his proposed direct action certainly looks more in line with the rest of the globe than Malcolms economy crippling ETS.

Mr. Turnbull have you seen the latest morgan poll
It is on Poll bludger site. it will make you smile.

i have now read the times on line piece.
Well the deniers at it again.
Just keep blogging on Mr Turnbull people like me who are believers
Like 80 percent of people just cannot even be bothered replying to these people
so because there is not many there for the opposite
do take this that people agree. Just cannot be bothered arguing.
i think it s like the flat earth people and all the other things on this earth that have turned out to be correct. Re Darwin etc.

O and catholic school these days don't teach bible studies in fact when i was at school in the 60's we have very little in bible reading.
The children from other denominations who went to Sunday school seemed to have much more than us. So i have no idea why abbott would want this.
I did not think it would be long before he started dictating religion to the masses
I have an aunt who is a Jehovah witness and i very rarely go there because when she starts it really upsets me and turns me off
So i can imagine this is how most people will feel about his comment.
Catholic people in the main are very much individuals now following their own path way most of us love our faith but will not be dictated to.

@denise - so you are a climate change believer and love the Catholic faith. Do you ever stand aside from these belief systems and seriously question what you are believing in and why?

More lies from Greenhoax , courtesy of the sleazy Andrew Bolt
"Richard Lindzen and Fred Singer, two of the world’s most distinguished climate scientists, were among his early targets,"

What bullshit !!!


Singer is a rent-a-mouth - he made a fortune employed by the tobacco industry casting doubt about tobaccos adverse effects on health - his amoral work may have caused thousands of deaths. Now he is paid by the oil companies to cast doubt about climate change science. Lindzen the same.


The denier industry is well organised and well funded and relies on stooges like Bolt , Akerman, Blair to spread their advertising

@Russell

I do not accept your view that the events concerning the Liberal Party leadership was all about the ETS. For instance, Why wasn't Malcolm's leadership challenged over his extremely poor handling of the 'ute' affair, and Grech? I'll tell you why.. It was because one of the powerbrokers, Eric Abetz, was involved in the whole saga up to his neck. In relation to 'Sides' I remind you that there are many with differing points of view, and yours may, or may not be the one that is correct. I beleive the Liberal Party should honour it's agreements. The party voted to negotiate amendments to the Governments ETS scheme (we also proposed an ETS at the last election) and voted to accept and pass the scheme with OUR amendments.. Our undertakings were disgarded because of the interception of the Powerbrokers who had a different agenda. Spinelees individuals such as Humphries, Morrison, Robb and other easily led sheep went against their beliefs for the benefit of the powerbrokers. - Not the Liberal Party. A point you should note is that two most honourable Liberal Party women stood their ground, and they are to be applauded. What do you say about them? Also advise us what damage has there been to all the other Countries that have already introduced an ETS ? The answer is none whatsoever.
I also see that you are now denigrating 'Denise' over her beliefs., may I suggest you stand back and have a long, hard look at your own.

Perhaps you should also take the time to read the balanced contributions to this blog by 'Copenhagen' - 'Karen' - 'Scio' and others, and you might learn something. All I know is that if you want to earn the Trust of your Supporters and the voters of this country it is paramount that you have Sound Policies, and a Leader with Honour and Integrity. Things of which we are now completely devoid.

@Rex I can see we will not agree on anything but what the hell - we are just going to be outlining our diametrically opposed points of view. If you support Malcolm I don't think it's a good idea to bring "utegate' into the discussion - not one of Malcom's finest hours. If it was Eric Abetz manipulating the agenda then Malcolm had a choice whether to follow or not. Whether you cite Grech or Abetz, Malcolm did not display very sound political strategy in getting sucked in by either of them. If I see a common theme to your posts it is about rigidity - in that once you or the party has taken a position on something you must not change under any circumstances. That will not work on this issue as there is new information appearing all the time and the issue is changing quicker than the climate.
You say John Howard went to the last election with an ETS , well even he is prepared to change position - note his latest Youtube clip. And as for your honourable women voting for the ETS against party lines - one of them suggested climate change was an issue because she was from a rural background and had witnessed the harsh climate. A bit like Combet suggesting climate change has arrived because it is a hot day today. The party room had decisively voted to down the ETS and these two went against the party - what about their honour and integrity? I still maintain the leadership change was about the ETS and nothing else.
Anyway Rex we could go on forever but the lack of action on climate change at Copenhagen fairly and squarely puts this issue into context. It is not panic stations as Kevin Rudd and Malcolm would have you believe. The cleaning up of the planet is nothing more than common sense and will be done in a timely manner without the prompting of the scaremongerers, crooked scientists, crazy greens and any one else with self serving interests. This outcome is a tick for common sense and a tick for Tony Abbott in sticking with common sense even when his position was not a populist one - now it is. . Your last paragaph paints a sorry scenario. I don't think it's that bad Rex. I believe most Liberal supporters are breathing a sigh of relief that we are not sitting here with a Rudd /Turnbull ETS when the globe in essence may not be going down that track but more likely down the Abbott track of direct action. You are saying we don't have sound policies - well how about you give the leader a few minutes to formulate them. Rex - you come across as a Turnbull supporter at any cost - I think Malcolm is a very personable and smart guy from what I have seen - but from what I have seen of his political judgment and his reading of the electorate - I am not impressed.

@Russell

All polititions make mistakes and errors of judgement. Most are decent Human beings, some masquerade as such.
Malcolm and his front bench did make some fundamental errors of judgement in my view. However, nothing compares with Abbott 's lack of political judgement on so many occaassions. Not only does he reguarlary flip-flopp, and make ridiculous statements, he is also known to have made unforgiveable comments such as accusing a decent dying man in a wheelchair of performing a stunt !!!! This man should not be leading the Liberal Party in my view. That aside, please carefully read Malcom Turnball's latest item, foremostly the Liberal Party's policy (previous) on climate change and their views on why an Australian ETS should be introduced before the rest of the world. If you watched Sunday Agenda this morning even yourself would probably have been embarrassed. Tony Abbot was a stuttering mess as he could not respond to the questions put to him.
You and I will obviously continue to disagree, but whether the leader of the Liberal Party be Dr. Nelson, Malcolm Turnball ,Tony Abbott or any other individual they need to be above all else a person of Integrity who upholds the values and ethics of the party. Dr. Brendan Nelson and Malcolm Turnball both displayed those qualities, but in my opinion Mr. Abbott and the powerbrokers fall well short in these fundamental principals.
Russell, you suggest Liberal Party supporters are breathing a sigh of relief., I believe most are holding their breath. The outcome will be revealed at the next election.

@ Rex

In a number of my posts I have acknowledged that Malcolm is a personable and highly intelligent person and I was hoping he would lead us out of the wilderness but it didn't happen. In my opinion too many political misjudgements. I agree (yes agree) with your assessment of Malcolm's and of Brendon Nelson's qualities. My perspectives are more about the ETS arguments than about political personalities. I am squarely in Abbots corner on the global warming issue. As to how Abbott pans out as a leader - I have my fingers crossed. I have read Malcolms latest blog and you can see my comments there. If Malcolm had a more realistic position on global warming I would be right behind him - I think he's totally on the wrong track.
Anyway Rex - all the best and have a good Xmas and let's see what surprises the new year brings.

@ Rex

In a number of my posts I have acknowledged that Malcolm is a personable and highly intelligent person and I was hoping he would lead us out of the wilderness but it didn't happen. In my opinion too many political misjudgements. I agree (yes agree) with your assessment of Malcolm's and of Brendon Nelson's qualities. My perspectives are more about the ETS arguments than about political personalities. I am squarely in Abbots corner on the global warming issue. As to how Abbott pans out as a leader - I have my fingers crossed. I have read Malcolms latest blog and you can see my comments there. If Malcolm had a more realistic position on global warming I would be right behind him - I think he's totally on the wrong track.
Anyway Rex - all the best and have a good Xmas and let's see what surprises the new year brings.

# Alan Johnston - You are actually wrong. I don't actually think people who make comments here are attacking me. My comment on Lord Monckton was actually in response to comments from those of the left who did lump those more to the right into the same basket. I really don't believe all or even most global warming believers approve of using violence (I actually wouldn't know). It was just a case of tit-for-tat, to show how silly it is to lump everyone into the same basket.

When I have a point of disagreement with someone , I usually target them by name - isn't this what debate is about ?

They write those things for many reasons, but for the most part, I wrote in anger because I felt betrayed.
I believed in global warming, because hey, I watch tv. I've done a fair bit of research and now I believe that both sides are crawling with vested interests and anyone who calls 'catastrophe' & "sign now" cannot be trusted.
We expected you to lead. You either sold us out or simply have no idea about what's 'out there', either way, your qualifications were revoked, by yourself.
I hope you have a safe and happy Christmas and do some research.

Hello Malcolm,

It is interesting those comments aren't they? I do think though, how you vent yourself on a blog, you will get similar responses. In other words, you get what you radiate. And because your stance was a take it or leave it one and "politely hostile", you get extreme responses.

### Alan Johnston Just for info and back ground re some posts above


Tuesday, December 22, 2009 1:47 PM
Some excerts from previous posts by """" eric b """"
*********************************************************************
Eric B
Thursday, December 17, 2009 2:42 PM
Copenhagen, it's about time you open your mind and entertain alternative sources of information. By the way, I don't know greenhoax for a bar of soap, but at least he is across the other views in this whole debate
********************************************************************************
Eric B
Friday, December 18, 2009 9:49 AM
Evolution: look up:

http://www.creationresearch.net/ John Mackay.

Also, there is no evidence of species in fossil records or today that show living things in a transitional stage. Of course, if you had an open mind, you'd do your own research without having to be prompted
*******************************************************************************
Eric B
Friday, December 18, 2009 10:35 AM
# Greenhoax -
It's enough to turn a real warming believer into a racist , pet-eating, hyrbrid driving maniac. Guys - if you really believe this stuff, do you believe it enough to eat your dogs, if not , then spare me the false pretense, please.

*******************************************************************************
# GreenIsAHoax
Monday, December 21, 2009 4:18 PM
Hey Eric,
"you too have much to be greatful from the christian religion. "
The latté-sipping, urban-atheist socialists have found a new religion to replace Christianity.
It's called the New Church Of Latter Day Warming.
The obvious reason for their venomous hatred of Christianity is that it is in direct competition with their new-found pagan religion!

******************************************************************************
Eric B
Monday, December 21, 2009 4:35 PM
Well, GreenHoax, your and my line of reasoning on this point is really trying to appeal to a rational mind, perhaps that is where we fail to get the message across. People energised by their emotions aren't using logic , but it's always something to pray about. As they say, there but for the grace of God go I.

*******************************************************************************

UNTIL THE POSTS of DEC 21st have been very tolerant of opinions and views AS seen by the post below .
I DO however draw a line with the so call righteous views in their posts 21st Dec which also expose their aims of all the previous posts

# Copenhagen
Friday, December 18, 2009 1:50 PM
### Eric - B
### Greenhoax
Your views and maneuvers on various topics posted on this blog are at odds with the majority , Obviously both Climate Change Deniers and more recently both in argument have raised other areas of discussion and in every case denied any , all well founded science fact written and acknowledged by the wider scientific community .

Understand your rIGHT to follow the doctrine that you do and that unbridled belief can be a strange and terrible taskmaster . Your fellow ones should admire the religious zeal in which you follow your doctrine through the UPS and downs of your posts on this blog.

My acceptance and understanding of science is from the wider community and
religious belief very main stream I therefore wish to have no further discussion with either of you .

Forgive them father they know NOT what they do .
I wish you both the best for the festive season and future.

******************************************************************************
All are entitled to their beliefs however what is being but forward as so call
fact anyone CAN and WILL be called to a point of ORDER and
AGENDA EXPOSED

Erc B's mentor , John Mackay

http://www.creationresearch.net/ John Mackay.

"Satan has only recently begun introducing evolution to Third World countries in order to destroy missionary enterprise."


It seems that Satan has employed the Archbishop of Canterbury, The Pope & the majority of the worlds Christians - all of whom have no problem believing in evolution.

Thankfully we have paranoid fundamentalists , such as John Mackay or the Taliban to save us from evolutionary biology (and presumably, biology, geology, physics, astronomy, modern medicine etc etc etc)

“Lord” Monckton should be respected as a learned scientist giving an unbiased review of an area of science within his area of expertise.

i.e. he “should” be if any of these were true ……which they are not (he is not even a Lord – although he “creatively” refers to himself as a "peer of the House of Lords" )

His scientific qualifications are a diploma in journalism studies and he was an advisor to the Thatcher government….. on the sale of council flats (he claims also to have been an advisor on “warship hydrodynamics” - amazing what a diploma in journalism studies qualifies you to do). He has also been an “immigration consultant” to some very interesting companies.


He is the senior policy advisor for the ‘SPPInstitute, , funded by ExxonMobil and alleges that climate change is a global communist conspiracy to impose a world government and he calls supporters of action on climate change Nazis & Hitler youth. His statements about climate change science reflect his scientific credentials – at best they are mistaken , at worst straight out lies & fabrications.


His comments on DDT show a remarkable combination of scientific illiteracy & outright lies & advocated construction of concentration camps for compulsory incarceration of all AIDS sufferers.

It is a sad reflection on our priorities that real scientists are ignored (can any of you deniers tell us the name of an actual climate scientist) whilst charlatans such as Monckton, Bolt , Jones etc set about engineering public opinion with pseudoscientific nonsense.

Chinas investment in clean energy - for those liars trying to tell us China is doing nothing:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/12/21/091221fa_fact_osnos

# scio
Wednesday, December 23, 2009 3:24 PM
Erc B's mentor , John Mackay

http://www.creationresearch.net/ John Mackay.

"Satan has only recently begun introducing evolution to Third World countries in order to destroy missionary enterprise."

------------------------------------


Have you reviewed any of the science put forwARD BY MacKay, Scio, that is what I was referring you to ?

Eric B Saturday, January 02, 2010 10:12 AM


"Have you reviewed any of the science put forwARD BY MacKay, Scio, that is what I was referring you to ? "

The "science" at that site is probably of year 8 high school standard - really it is appalling.
Can you refer me to an actual scientific paper on the alleged fossilised golf ball - it seems this site is the only one on the whole internet claiming what would be a revolutionary find

The "science" at that site is probably of year 8 high school standard - really it is appalling.
Can you refer me to an actual scientific paper on the alleged fossilised golf ball - it seems this site is the only one on the whole internet claiming what would be a revolutionary find
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's an observation , Scio. Do you have a problem with that ? Does it invalidate his claims on evolution being false (which he has not made wth respect to this finding), and if so, how so in your opinion ?

### Scio
The following may assist re origin of the """" Science"""" offered by some and why answers defy logic nor firm scientific fact. Comics are usually not good science.

***************************************************
# Eric B
Thursday, December 17, 2009 2:28 PM
Copenhagen:
First let me say that I don't present my interpretation or version of science on global warming - rather I draw upon others for that (and for the most part, I hope and expect they are creditable scientists applying rigorous scientific methods
***************************************************
"""""HOPE """" being the operative word here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
***************************************************

Really this blog was about Malcolms assessment on Communications and wishes for the Feasive Season but here again the fAR rIGHT wish to hyjack and promote their version of wobbly science . Just goes to again prove reason for Malcolms clear stance on the ETS and why the party is now divided by this negative faction.

Ah, Ok, Copenhagen Merry Christmas then. Do you feel better now?

Copenhagen Thursday, January 07, 2010 12:54 PM


Interesting !!!
Tony Abbott announced on Lateline thatr , although he like to quote from Hadley & IPCC reports plus books such as Ian Plimers "Heaven & Earth" , he has not actually bothered reading any of them , relying only on journalists intrerpretations of them.

And this intellectually lazy conman displaced Turnbull.

Abbott seems to never quotes from Plimers previous book , "Telling Lies for God" about the lies, fraud & fabrications perpetuated by creationists

Hummmmmmmmmmm

No boubt it was BOLT's or similar version he read
OR "" heard it on DA radio "" in da big white car

Apart from shooting from the hip and any topic
The pattern continues

Sorry I do not wish to interfere with jousting with eric the B
But after their agenda became clear I can not bring myself to assisting their cause in any way .

But happy to assist you and the logical BIG "" L"" liberal cause where possible especially exposing the truth about the rIGHT wING antics
Cheers

Copenhagen
Friday, January 08, 2010 10:23 PM

In my experience the most hard core deniers are the religious fundamentalists (eg Young Earth Creationists) as the science of global warming is in direct conflict with their religious beliefs - for example :

- paleoclimatology - we have atmospheric records going back some 750,000 years (in ice bubbles) - creationists totally reject all this data because they believe the earth is 6000 years old, despite all evidence to the contrary
- atmospheric CO2 ratios - we know that the increase in atmospheric CO2 (from ca 280ppm to ca 385 ppm in past 100 years) is caused by burning fossil fuels from examination of C12:C13 and C12:C14 ratios. Creationists totally reject anything related to C14 as it in conflict with earth being 6000 years old
- the whole concept of potential climate catastrophe is in conflict with religious myths about the Rapture & Gods mythical covenant

Creationists use exactly the same arguments against climate change as they do against evolution - such as :
- it is only a theory
- scientists produce fraudulent data due to fear of losing government funding if they tell the truth
- it is part of a global atheist/communist conspiracy denying God
- it is part of a plot to create a world government /new world order under UN control
- all reputable scientists have long since abandoned support for global warming

Has Mark Vaile changed his opinion because he got a real job? Or has he become a communist?


http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/climate-change-Liberal-National-ETS-Kevin-Rudd-pd20091201-YARBA?OpenDocument&src=is&cat=infrastructure-al

Tony Abbott & Barnaby Joyce are being manipulated by atheists, drug addicts and sodomites!!!


I saw some comments about Ian Plimer & Monckton so decided to check myself - Plimer is a radical atheist & hates Christians – he has been shown to be incompetent (see http://creation.com/ian-plimers-bloopers-a-selection) and dishonestly anti Christian – see http://creationwiki.org/Ian_Plimer “In 1994, Plimer published Telling Lies for God. In this book Plimer employs straw-man arguments, innuendo, guilt by association, and outright false accusations to malign creationists in general and C.S.F. in particular. ” Plimer lost a string of lawsuits including defamation actions after defaming decent honest Christians
- and our country is founded on Christian values.

Plimer is getting ExxonMobil money to bring Monckton to Australia - Monckton is a liar – he lied about being a Lord , he lied about being a Nobel Laureate, he lied about being a scientific advisor to Thatcher. He called for building concentration camps to imprison all AIDS suffers for life (read it in his outrageous book - "The Myth of Heterosexual AIDS," – I have a loved relative who got AIDS from a blood transfusion : Moncktons stormtroopers would arrest her & lock her up for life, just like the Nazis)


And then look at the biggest supporters of Monckton in the press – look up yourself (I cant print their names obviously) and you will find an aggressive serial homosexual, a cocaine abuser and a vile hypocrite who lectures us on morals but has been sacked from many jobs for sexual harassment and physical abuse of female staff

Why is this alliance of atheists , frauds, drug abusers, perverts & sodomites trying to take over the policy and thinking of the Liberal & National Party? Why are Tony Abbott & Barnaby Joyce falling for this?

# Margaret Hamilton - I'm not sure this is an appropriate forum for these types of revelation, Margaret. I'd rather debate global warming if you don't mind.

Eric - so you are happy to be associated with atheists, frauds, liars if they agree with you? How about Nazis or Islamists - is there any limit

Dont you have any moral code?

Eric - so you are happy to be associated with atheists, frauds, liars if they agree with you? How about Nazis or Islamists - is there any limit

- This question can probably be played out on a number of levels. One level is to assess it in the light of truth, regardless of a person's own moral or ethical standards - something is either true or not independant of the character of the person who delivers the information. The other level is to only accept evidence from a source whose own standards agree with your own.

Even though I am a christian, and believe that Jesus Christ is 'the way the truth and the life' as he says of himself, and in doing so invalidates all other approaches to God and the notions of an afterlife outside of a biblical definition of such, nevertheless, those that hold to a faith other than christianity (or a perversion of the christian faith) can be just as moral, and truthful in this life, as a christian can be, and in fact, may well be more so. I most definitely am not an apologist for Islam, but I don't think it is fair to mention Nazism and Islam in the same sentence, though we certainly have seen evidence of nazi influence on the islamic mindset in history(the nazis for instance had a contigent of muslims, and the late Arrafat's uncle inspected nazi troups and urged Hitler to finish off the Jews), and one may also argue that this influence lives on to this day in some Islamic quarters. It would however be wrong and unfair to suggest that all or even majority of muslims subscribe to this.

Monckton from what I can tell is also a devout roman catholic who hates abortion - as do I. I'm not a roman catholic, and don't believe catholicism to be a valid interpretation of the christian faith because it departs from the scriptures in so many ways. However, Monckton is passionate about revealing what he believes to be the lies behind global warming, and for that I commend him. Also, I do know and have known some wonderful roman catholics and though I don't agree with their views on christianity, I can value their moral principles, and in so far as they are aligned with truth and justice, admire them for there humanity.

You assert that 'Plimer is getting ExxonMobil money to bring Monckton to Australia - Monckton is a liar – ' I would be open to and interested in the evidence for this - if it is true, then it should be exposed and debated. I still have my doubts about global warming based upon much evidence to the contrary, irrespective of Monckton or Plimer.

Dont you have any moral code?

- Yes, I do, and it stems from both my conscience and the judeo-christian ethic.


I'm not meaning to create a wedge here, Margaret, and please don't take this as an attack on you personally, but I do feel you have taken things to an extreme with your assertions here

Eric - I said "Islamists" , not "Muslims"

There is a world f difference - dont confuse the two

Eric - I said "Islamists" , not "Muslims"

There is a world f difference - dont confuse the two
------------------------------------------------------------------

Please explain the difference to me , Margaret. Either I am ignorant on this point which is generally understood by others, or you have a personal view that you understand which I don't.

### Margret

Some Climate Change DENIERS/SKEPTICS on this in the past have spoken their mind on topics of their choise NOT keeping to the actual topic of climate change . Yet they now choose to object to others doing the same .
Some topics may seem a bit out there to some and not to others in the long run it is your choise.

Following web site may be of interest in your argument

Evangelical Environmental Group Funded By Pro-Abort, Pro ... Dr. Roy Spencer, a research scientist at the University of Alabama served as Senior Scientist for .... impede the advancement

Eric - probably as good a definition as any http://www.danielpipes.org/954/distinguishing-between-islam-and-islamism

Margaret - I couldn't access the exact article from my browser, but another related article in the site speaks of 'Islamism'. From my very brief reading it seems to me that the distinction you make boils down to this, please review my understanding:

Muslim
-------

An adherent of the Islamic faith. It's adherents express a faith in the 'Allah' of the Koran. This may be personal and corporate, but is non-violent, and does not necessarily seek to force others to comply with their spiritual and world-view

Islamism
-------------

A concerted effort to transform the world into an Islamic regime , often using terror to acheive this end.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

If my understanding is correct, then I'm inclined to agree with you on that point. I have read a lot on information on this sought of thing:

1. Briggette Grabiel's - Because they hate
2. Serge Trifkovic - The sword of the prophet
3. Avi Lipkin's books and various DVD's

There seems to be very strong evidence of Islamism in the world. However, with the effort so far employed to contain it, America, and the rest of the world is curtailing personal freedom - a lot of thought needs to go into how far citizens are prepared to restrict their freedoms to control this problem, and whether there are better ways to contain it. As an example, the US is and has been planning mock terrorist attacks within its cities, without consulting the public or the authorities of those areas. I've even seen video evidence where a FEMA commando is telling his officers that the founding fathers of America were terrorists against the British. This line of thought disturbs me deeply, becaue it brings with it an erosion of freedoms and demonisation of those who won't comply with the authorities.

Interested to know your thoughts.

Margaret , Eric et al Re : Islam

(i) go to google
(ii) Type in "Christianity is " - you will get options of many sites.......... mainly negative about Christianity
(iii) Do same for Judaism (ie type "Judaism is" ) ....then Hinduism .....then Mormonism
(iv) Almost all sites are negative
(v) Now do same for Islam
(vi) Then contemplate : "why is this so?"


Not all my words , but reflects my opinions :

Islamism : is yet another twentieth-century radical utopian scheme. Like Marxism-Leninism or fascism, it offers a way to control the state, run society, and remake the human being. It is an Islamic-flavored version of totalitarianism.
One illustration: Whereas traditional Islam's sacred law is a personal law, a law a Muslim must follow wherever he is, Islamism tries to apply a Western-style geographic law that depends on where one lives. Take the case of Sudan, where traditionally a Christian was perfectly entitled to drink alcohol, for he is a Christian, and Islamic law applies only to Muslims. But the current regime has banned alcohol for every Sudanese. It assumes Islamic law is territorial because that is the way a Western society is run.

Islamism has few connections to wealth or poverty; it is not a response to deprivation. There is no discernible connection between income and Islamism. Rather, this movement is led by capable people coping with the rough and tumble of modern life. The ideology appeals primarily to modern people; it is interesting that the "soldiers" of Al Qaeda are not from destitute, slum backgrounds, but are often highly educated engineers etc. Philisophically, Islamists are probably not dissimilar to volunteer soldiers & police

You make some interesting points, Scio. I did a cursory search on christianity, islam and hinduism, but they all seemed to have their detractors and promoters. Perhaps I needed more time for a more comprehensive view of the various websites. It did take me to some very interesting sites on Islam and named some ex-muslims of which I am vaguely familiar - Noni Darwish being one. She speaks (or attempts to speak) quite openly on being repressed within Islam, and it's oppressing nature on women . Other things I have read would suggest that the men are definitely more free, generally speaking , than the women.

I think that 'Islamism', though is an ideal that predates the 20th century, and has largley been dormant till now (the 400 year turkish islamic empire effectively ended after the 1st world war). One source of information suggests that saudi oil money supports much of the islamic terrorism seen in the world today, so perhaps flushed with funds, there are those whose desire to control can now be realised through the money at their disposal.

I do believe the evidence bears out what you wrote on those muslims inclined towards violence often coming from a well-educated background. That is why Iwhen I read the press writing that poverty has radicalised muslims I have to shake my head and ask have these people read up on evidence to the contrary. Indoctrination towards violence is really more the key.

Bad email I guess.....

"That is why Iwhen I read the press writing that poverty has radicalised muslims I have to shake my head and ask have these people read up on evidence to the contrary"


I totally agree. The only thing poverty does is supply some willing minor players from despair - the ones who will wear a suicide vest organised by others.
Starving people wants to fill their families tummies, not change the world.

It is interesting to reflect upon Islams Renaissance from around 9 - 13C , the grand legacy and what it is today

More hypocrisy from Dads Army!!!
These idiot Liberals have been happy for years to support managed investment schemes , run by companies such as Timbercorp & Great Southern , to pay huge monies for prime agricultural land to grow uneconomic crops all in the name of tax dodging.
These pointless schemes push up price of land and divert real farmers from growing real crops


Tony Abbott sinks forests on farms

* Christian Kerr
* From: The Australian
* January 20, 2010 12:00AM

TONY Abbott will rule out the use of prime agricultural land for carbon sinks when he announces a new policy on climate change in a move aimed at avoiding a damaging split with the Nationals.

The new Coalition policy, expected to be released ahead of next month's parliamentary showdown with Kevin Rudd on the emissions trading scheme, is expected to hold back on declaring an emissions-reduction target before the Prime Minister names his final position. The policy will also include incentives to boost soil carbon levels and revegetate land.

"We're about improving farm productivity, strong support for soil carbon, revegetation - and we're not going to provide incentives for foresting over prime agricultural land," opposition climate change spokesman Greg Hunt told The Australian yesterday.

Tree planting on prime agricultural land has been a long-running source of strife between the Coalition partners with the Nationals implacably opposed to encouraging the practice because of its effect on the cost of farmland and its potential effects on agricultural production.


Nationals senators crossed the floor in 2008 to vote against legislation giving tax breaks to private forestry carbon sinks. Deputy Senate leader Fiona Nash was forced to resign from the front bench in the wake of the move.

Sporadic strife continued through last year after then Liberal leader Malcolm Turnbull endorsed a CSIRO report calling for the planting of more than nine million hectares of trees to tackle climate change.

But as it enters an election year, the opposition is keen to present a united front after the damaging divisions that culminated in last month's change of leadership.

The government is certain to attack the policy, saying it will not do enough to cut emissions.

The issue will come to a head when parliament resumes next month with the government reintroducing the emissions trading scheme legislation in a new bill incorporating amendments agreed with Mr Turnbull before he was deposed as Liberal leader.

Nationals Senate leader Barnaby Joyce said his party would not back away from its opposition to creating carbon forest sinks through tree planting on prime agricultural land.

"People are very touchy about removing prime agricultural land, whether for mining or carbon sink forests or anything else as you can't replace it," Senator Joyce said.

"Carbon sink forests aren't just an issue for people in the country. They're an issue for people in Sydney. If you want to start planting trees everywhere they grow fruit, and everywhere they grow vegetables, and where you get the predominant inflow of affordable food into your life, well, you know what's going to happen to your cost of living."

Senator Joyce said farmers supported carbon sequestration.

"We've been doing it for years; it's called no-till farming," he said.

"If people want to recognise it and encourage it and put a financial return on the carbon you sequestrate, you'll get farmers going out of their way to sequestrate more carbon and you won't have to change any law - they'll just do it for you."

Senator Joyce insisted that growing forests to absorb carbon was not an effective way to cut emissions.

Mr Hunt said the Coalition parties were in "perfect harmony".

"We are going to make sure prime agricultural land is properly protected and not converted to reforested land," Mr Hunt said.

Tony Abbott wrote to the Prime Minister just before Christmas pledging bipartisan support for emissions reduction targets.

Mr Hunt insisted the Coalition would still be able to honour this commitment with its new policy.

Mr Hunt said the Coalition wanted an incentives-based regime.

"The one boundary put there is that we're not going to support or provide incentives for afforesting over prime agricultural land," he said.

Well said Barnaby Joyce!!!

Monckton’s statements that climate change is a global communist conspiracy to establish a world government are totally idiotic – to be believed only by the gullible, the deranged & the very very stupid

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/blogs/greenlines/lord-monckton-is-on-the-fringe-barnaby-joyce/20100120-mlfq.html

Joyce, who famously said that climate change sceptics were being treated like holocaust deniers and likened environmental campaigners to eco-Nazis, believes Monckton is on the fringe of the debate and unhelpful to those who question human induced climate change.
‘‘Obviously I and my constituency have some doubts (about the science) but when you find yourself waltzing with the fringe you should take a step back,’’ Joyce said.
‘‘Lot’s of people from the fringe often take up causes and it can do more harm than good.’’

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